A fine brother asked me the other day to comment on a view of the Rapture
that he seems to favor, but I don't. We both agree that the Rapture view we hold
has no bearing on our Salvation. He said that he hopes I am right. It is not my view.
it is the view of Jesus Christ and the only one that has the best harmony in Scripture
on the issue. I pretty much think pre-wrath is the sixth horse....a very dead one,
but this is my comment on it.
Rosenthal and his pre-wrath ideas cannot be supported by Scripture, and his attempts
to do so create numerous contradictions......
Suggesting as he does that these first six seals of prophetic judgment are not see Romans 5:2-4-9). Thus he identifies the first five-in-a half years as “a time of difficulty”! BUT HE IS WRONG......THEY WILL BE PART OF THE TRIBULATION !
The strongest term in the book of Revelation for describing that PERIOD is used in Revelation 6:16-17 ...For the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?” Yet Rosenthal puts the Rapture between the sixth and seventh seals......APPARENTLY “THE WRATH OF THE LAMB” is not , according to Rosenthal, “a time of difficulty.” This point alone desroys the entire premise of his book. Most reasonable, Bible-loving, pre-Trib rapturists would abandon their position IF A BETTER THEORY BASED ON SCRIPTURE came along. Pre-Wrath rapture is not that theory.
Many other faulty assumptions could be brought to the witness stand...............particularly Rosenthal’s failure to make a clear distinction between the church and Israel. His novel suggestion that archangel Michael is the restrainer mentioned in 2 Thes. 2:7 (256) does nothing to strengthen his position.
The pre-Wrath rapture is a misnomer......It isn’t pre, for Rosenthal locates the Rapture 63 months
into the Tribulation period. And it isn’t WRATH because the author refuses to acknowledge it as
Tribulation wrath until five-an-a-half years of the Tribulation have passed. Both tenets are unscriptural, opening the theory to forms of post-Tribulationalism.
It is a serious error to claim, as Rosenthal does, that “the first three and one-half years are not part of the Tribulation period.” (106-7) because God’s wrath does not start until “considerably further” into the 70th week. In his words, “the seals are not God’s wrath; they are man’s wrath” (145).
Moreover, “the first five seals relate to man’s activity under controlling influence of Satan. God’s wrath has not begun” (247). But this in not entirely true, for the seals also reflect the judgement of the sovereign God. All seven seals are broken by Christ, and the riders of the first four seals and their accompanying judgments are initiated by four “living creatures” who descend from the very presence of God (Revelation4:6-8). They are responding to the divine holiness when they command these riders, not to “come and see,” but simply come!”.............
It is a flat out denial of scripture to declare the first four seals... the activity of men rather than the judgment of God. And a rapture placed after the first six seals would certainly not be a pre-wrath rapture.”
The pre-wrath view is the worst view to relate to the harmony of Scripture other than one view only, that is at least honest.....and that is the PAN view. People who don’t even believe in the Rapture and don’t care to look into it.... just say it will all “PAN out in the end. Too bad they don’t know they will be in the frying pan.
The comments were taken from the book, "The Rapture" by Tim LaHaye
Here is just an intro on what the
Scriptures say on this issue.
It's 12:30 am got to get some shut eye. Will be glad to discuss this issue with you.
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ26D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ37D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ22D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ20D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ40D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ46D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ21D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ27D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ6D.wmv
http://www.christianresource.com/media-clips/IRS/IRSQ32D
12 comments:
Brother Mark,
I read your article and I trust you will consider the following article that I wrote demonstrating that the first 6 seals are not the Day of the Lord's wrath.
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2007/10/the_first_six_seals_are_not_gods_wrath.php
Thank you,
Alan
Mark, your site was mentioned elsewhere, which is why you were paid this visit by Alan Kurschner. I've come across this phenomenon before during my research.
Maranatha,
mac
Brother Mark,
If there was no Biblical basis for the prewrath rapture position I would dismiss it immediately! The problem is, there is a Biblical basis for this position, and I believe that it is actually the most Biblical position.
Let me demonstrate:
In Titus 2:13 we see that we are to be looking for our blessed hope; the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Every pretrib preacher that I know of uses this verse in the context of the rapture. So, according to the pretrib position our blessed hope, the appearing of Jesus, is the same thing as the rapture.
This is where the pretrib position comes undone, because we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 that the appearing of our Lord Jesus and the Day of the Lord will not begin until after the man of sin is revealed (the antichrist - the first seal).
So Biblically, you cannot have the glorious appearing before the opening of the first seal.
Also, you have not addressed the Greek verb erchomai that I brought up yesterday, which clearly indicates that the wrath of God begins at the opening of the 7th seal.
Have a great day!
Peace,
Chris
Brother Chris,
The wrath of Satan has been going on since the fall of Adam. Satan and his wrath has been very active in the 20th and 21st centuries. More Christians were killed in the 20th century then all the others.
Satan's wrath will be very active in the Tribulation as he will make war with the saints and overcome them.
.......But, at the Ist seal, God's Wrath will overshadow Satan's
All I can say in closing on this
issue, is that anyone who is still
confused about what or when the wrath of God begins, will certainly
have first hand knowledge and surely understand it by the sixth seal.
God Bless you and Alan both.
Brother Mark,
In a book I read last year, I tripped over a very interesting bit of information. Before I share it, let me make two points:
(1) I don't agree with the author's stance wherein he believes there should be a Palestinian state to bring peace in the region.
(2) I believe in pre-wrath rapture, and I always have. Even though I have sat for years under the pre-tribulation teaching, I have not been able to accept a teaching that defies clearly laid out Scriptures regarding a pre-wrath position, not a pre-tribulation position. One has to mess with the chronology in Matthew 24, which is verified in Revelation, by moving around passages in Matthew 24 to make pre-trib doctrine work. One has to also ignore 2 Thess. 2:1-4, 8.
Here are the excerpts from The Road to Armageddon*:
"Before [John Nelson] Darby, all premillennialists, futurists (dispensationalists) included, believed that the rapture would occur at the end of the tribulation, at Christ's second advent."
"This pretribulation rapture made Darby's version of futurist premillennialism unique. No one knows for sure where this doctrine came from, but there are a number of theories. Samuel P. Tregelles, a respectable biblical scholar in Darby's day and one of the Plymouth Brethren, denied that a pretribulation rapture was taught in the Bible and argued that the idea orgininated in 1832 during an estatic utterance in the London congregation of Edward Irving..."
"A more recent historical explanation contends that the doctrine originated with Margaret Macdonald, a teenager from Glasgow, Scotland, who began having charismatic experiences in the early part of 1830. According to recently discovered (but highly confusing) manuscripts, Macdonald claimed to have special insights into the second coming of Christ and may have advocated a pretribulation rapture of the church."
"...The Plymouth Brethren commissioned Darby to go to Scotland and investigate. He arrived in the middle of 1830 and, according to his own testimony twenty-three years later, actually met Macdonald and heard her prophesy. According to the recent theory, Darby returned home totally against the so-called outpouring of the Spirit but convinced that Margaret Macdonald's view of the rapture was true. He subsequently fit it into his system but never acknowledged his debt to her, for obvious reasons."
"Without conclusive evidence, we may have to settle for Darby's own explanation. He claimed that the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture virtually jumped out of the pages of the Bible once he understood and consistently maintained the absolute distinction between Israel and the church in the prophetic plans of God."
Of Darby's doctrine, Weber writes,
"Once the heavenly people of God have been raptured, the divine script can be played out to the end. Shortly after the church's removal, the Antichrist will be revealed. Promising peace in a time of world chaos..."
*Timothy P. Weber. The Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend. (Grand Rapid, Michigan, Baker Academic, a division of Baker Publishing), pp. 24-25.
I point out these passages in Weber's book to discredit "pre-tribulation rapture" not because Margaret Macdonald was a charismatic (I refuse to criticise anyone who believes in the gifts of Spirit being available and used today since Jesus told the Pharisees that no one would be forgiven for speaking against the Holy Spirit when they were attributing His miracles to Satan). No, I am pointing out the fact that the early church, up until the early to mid 1800's, believed in a pre-wrath rapture. The only thing that changed their doctrine was Darby's belief in a young girl who said she had special insights into the second coming of Christ, though her insight defied the chronology of the second coming as Scripture clearly lays it out. And to show that Darby's position defies 2 Thess. 2:1-4 that says Jesus will not gather us to Him until the man of lawlessness be revealed, who Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth at His second appearance.
Brother Mark, not to be contentious here, no, not at all. I give this to you so you can think on your position given more information. This matter is certainly not one that mitigates one's salvation, but it may cause a lot of people much harm if they believe they will not have to suffer the tribulation like the Israelites suffered the plagues in Egypt before they were set free. By the way, my brother is a missionary and has said for years that the eastern church does not believe in a pre-trib rapture (unless they have been inundated by western thought). The pre-trib rapture is a doctrine upheld by the church existing in the western culture, which can't imagine being inconvenienced or having to suffer, yet their brothers and sisters in Christ who live in the East, the Middle East, and Africa are being martyred everyday - they have no difficulty believing the church will be present for much of the tribulation.
Shalom,
Deborah
Deborah,
Very well said. As I stated in an earlier comment, this is my concern with the pretrib position as well; it is not preparing the church for what is ahead. In the Olivet Discourse what Jesus described directly parallels the opening of the first six seals in Revelation chapter 6, and He directed this to Christians, telling them to watch and be prepared.
We need to be prepared.
Shalom,
Chris
I am a big boy now, and the Lord has saved me. If you guys are still around here going door to door along side the JWs at the six seal, instead of up in Heaven with the rest of the Body of Christ.... talking pre-Wrath,
by then, I wouldn't give you a snowballs chance in ___ of making it.
You and the JWs can take it somewhere else now. Have a good sixth seal.
BrotherMark.
I imagine Dave's already told you something similar. Let's part our ways on this issue and just wait and see what happens and when.
God Bless to you all again.....!!!
It is not a matter of Salvation and I will not loose my salvation or my
faith in Christ if things don't quite go quite the way I believe it will....as you have stated... could be the case,... if we are still here after the fairly soon, I might add, signing of the false treaty for peace with Israel. You assume too much about people who believe in pre-Trib....We don't all fit in a traditional little box of men's traditions. You make a big mistake
looking at church history to see what men were taught in the dark ages when the Bible was chained away from the common people. If they did read it, millions were put to death for believing what I believe. It is a Biblical issue...not church hitorical.....
Same as Salvation is not of works.
The Reformers just didn't study long enough to bring back all the original teachings Paul and Scripture. Amill and Replacement
Theology is still the most believed because millions were put to death
so things can be the way they are viewed by the many today. Even with the Left Behind fairy tails books, Pre-Trib is still in the minority to all the other hodge podge beliefs about the Rapture.
Brother Mark,
I am not going door to door. It is a matter of happenstance that Chris and and I both posted similar beliefs. I had no idea Chris was pre-wrath, and I'm sure he had no idea I was pre-wrath! I've never even heard of the book you've presented by Rosenthal in the next posting... for that matter, I've never heard of Rosenthal. I don't even know what the initials "JW" are refering to.
I have believed in a pre-wrath rapture since I was 16-years old, when I read the book of Revelation at one seating. The course of events was apparent to me and corroborated the course of events in Matthew 24. I have run into people throughout the years who believed in pre-wrath rapture, but for the most part, I've kept my belief to myself for the controversy and anger it stirs among those who are pre-trib, I won't address it on my blog, either, since pre-tribers consider my pre-wrath theology heretical. If people only knew the history of the pre-trib doctrine, which I explained above, they might be less inclined to hold to it.
I prayed God would put me in touch with people that believe the way I do without me having to overtly seek them out, and He has been faithful to do so. I am part of a small home Bible study group that recently started a series taught by a pre-wrath pastor in Grand Rapids that is intended to prepare us for the tribulation; it teaches how to prepare and stock supplies to get through the increasing number of natural disasters and/or wars that will knock out power, water, and sewage for extended periods of time. (As a person who experienced both Katrina and Rita, I can tell you this knowledge is extremely valuable! Houston was brought to its knees during Rita! Gasoline was gone in 8 to 12 hours after residents were told to evacuate. Cars with empty gas tanks littered the sides of the roads and food sat rotting in every grocery store throughout Houston for the lack of electricity and gas. Houstonians lived off of canned food and bottled water for 1-5 days while waiting for power to be restored. Residents from Beaumont, rich and poor, weren't allowed to return to their homes for two weeks and had to either pay for hotel rooms in other towns and cities or count on family and friends elsewhere for shelter and food.)
I won't come back as you've asked me not to, but I want you to know I was not purposely ganging up on you or trolling your blog. I'm an honest person with a whole lot of integrity, and as long as I've been reading Chris' blog, I can tell you he is, too. He and I just happened to believe the same way, which contradicts your belief. Brother Mark, why get so angry... except for the fear you're wrong.
Sorry to have caused a ruckus... it was not my intent! God bless you abundantly!
Shalom,
Deborah
Awe shucks...I am not angry.
Just thought you might take that
baloney somewhere else. Let's just agree to disagree on this. Time will take care of itself soon enough.
Thanks for dropping (bye).
Deborah,Chris,Alan and all Pre-wrath friends in Christ Jesus,
I thought about erasing your last post and mine.....Because what I said was ignorant and wrong and carnal !
Instead I think I will just leave it so I can see it from time to time
and remember that you believe you are right and so do I......but there is no use being unchristian like in this matter. Christ already forgave me.
I ask also you forgiveness for my rude behavior and comments.
But that is all I have to say about this topic. I am very new at blogging and I forgot for the moment this is Christ's work and blog....I will remember that in the future. May we all laugh together
about these times that at least we were in the arena together striving to reach out to others while it is still day.....the Harvest is white indeed.
God Bless,
BrotherMark
Well said, Brother Mark.
I'd like to also point out that it isn't Van Kampen, Rosenthal, MacDonald, Darby etc - but Holy scripture that we should be looking to for answers.
Blessings,
mac
PRE-WRATH CONFUSION:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewrath.htm
Post a Comment